This blew me away and made me regret not having been more adventurous in my life and living abroad. Your suggestions about learning the language of the place where you live in order not to be simply a tourist are so well taken. Learning Japanese has made all the difference for my son in that country. Thanks for such a helpful and interesting piece.
This was such an enlightening and fascinating piece. I currently live in Vienna and dream of living in western Ireland or the Scottish highlands (but this is, sadly, a dream that I won't be able to realise...).
It's interesting to compare and contrast Austria and Ireland. My mother is Northern Irish so I know a lot about Ireland but not so much the bureaucratic element of living there.
So glad to discover you, Clarice, and I'm eager to check out your newsletter (which I shall do shortly). I'm also eager to hear more about your experiences with Austrian healthcare. I've had some struggles with it, but my situation might be unique - long story short: I'm British/American but was married to a Ukrainian and we left Ukraine in Feb 2022 and came to Vienna. My status is weird, kind of like expat/refugee and though we do get healthcare, finding a doctor and making appointments has proven to be a NIGHTMARE for me and my ex-wife (but thankfully, not so for our daughter).
Sadly, despite nearly two decades as an EFL teacher, I am terrible at other languages (shame on me) and it's so easy to survive in Vienna on just English. I have plenty of other terrible/valid excuses/reasons for not learning other languages over the years, which I might write about in detail at a later date.
I taught EFL for 12 years--both in the US and abroad--so we have that in common, too. I worked so hard to learn other languages when I was younger and became fairly fluent--for a time--in German, French and Spanish, but not even close to native speaking ability. A much younger colleague of mine at the INGO in Vienna where I worked was from Portugal and could read, write and speak English, German, French and Spanish (and Portuguese) like a native, with a perfect accent. (I used to tell her that she is who I want to be when I grow up!)
In addition, I have always envied people who tell me they learned to speak English just from watching American and British movies and TV. I am currently in Vienna and met another one of those last night--my charming taxi driver--who was born in Austria of Turkish parents. His English was really good, and I was really jealous!
The rest of us will just struggle along, doing the best we can, I guess.
I really like reading Substacks from people who are living in Vienna and just subscribed to yours.
Given your comments on language I thought you might enjoy my essay "German (then), French (now)" which concerns learning German in Bavaria, where dialect also flourishes. I used to play cards with some Bavarians at a hotel where I worked in Munich and was always amused by how they'd replaced "-zig" and the end of numbers like zwanzig, with "-sky", so "zwansky."
I absolutely loved your article, John! I am currently on a bus in Vienna. As soon as I am in the hotel again and next to my computer, I will go back to it and write a long comment.
I would love to know what such a professional would call themselves, how one might find them:
“…what is required and gathering together all of the necessary documents. It might be a good idea to hire a professional who can walk you through all of this and accompany you to the immigration office.”
Thank you, Davie. Each country would be different, I imagine. In many cases, it could be a lawyer who specializes in immigration services who would know what kind of paperwork is required and who would accompany you. Sometimes there may be a specialized immigration organization who could help. Even a friend or relative in the local country could accompany you just for translation purposes if the paperwork is in order.
In my case, the rules and regulations for obtaining a residence visa in Austria were clearly spelled out in English on the official website, so I took care of that before I left the US. However, I had to go to the immigration office in Vienna every year to renew my status, and just knowing what room to go to, what paper to fill out, how they would call your name, and what questions they would ask in the interview was a bit daunting. I spoke enough German to manage on my own, but I often saw that other people where accompanied by someone who could walk them through the process.
What an enjoyable read about Clarice's incredible journey(s) to her present home in Ireland. What a varied trip, and with so much information packed in for anyone thinking or planning a move abroad. I'd read Clarice's post in Travel Doorways a couple weeks ago about her apartment searches and ordeals in Vienna which although full of trials and tribulations for Clarice, made for good reading--in a far away spot for an armchair traveler--to know about that process. We experienced immigration issues in Mexico and although different, somehow they always ring a bit the same. Thanks Elizabeth, great post!
This is really a double whammy- because if offers info on Austria too, not just Ireland. And how interesting to learn that for an Austrian speaking Hoch Deutsch seems harder than English. Thanks for these posts Elizabeth.
Thank you from me, too, Liza. Austrian German has a lot of words that are different from standard German, as well as pronunciation. For example, in German the word for tomato is "Tomate." In Austrian, it is "Paradeiser." (Go figure!) Even though the news media and teachers in schools use Hoch Deutsch, dialect unites people and makes them feel like they belong. I think there is an underlying animosity/bit of competition involved, too, that make Austrians unwilling to speak HD if they don't have to.
Clarice, thanks for the explanation about the importance of dialect in relation to a sense of belonging. I knew about the difference in pronunciation, but I thought that all Austrians were comfortable with Hoch Deutsch. I learned German in Austria and watching ORF (I am from Slovenia) and have been told I sound Austrian when I speak my very limited German. Also, in the part of Slovenia I come from, the language is highly influenced by Austrian German, so I actually say paradajz (which pronounced pah-rrah-dies) and use many other words of Austrian German origin (we were, after all "colonised" by the Austrio-Hungarian empire for many years).
That is really interesting, Liza. I’m afraid that my German identifies me immediately as an English speaker rather than as a native of either Germany or Austria! Do you use German very often in Slovenia?
I don’t live in Slovenia any more, but I know that few people in Slovenia speak German on a regular basis. Actually a lot of people use words of German/Austrian origin without realising it. But for most people, the foreign language they learn/speak is English.
I had to smile reading the interview text. I come from an Irish-American family and lived and worked in Ireland almost 13 years. My impression is that, while Ireland participates in EU programmes assuring reciprocal healthcare privileges, the organisations delivering care seem not to be equipped to deal with the particulars, such as you experienced. What you experienced as a result is what is called "an Irish solution to an Irish problem"--a phrase I heard countless times while living there. (Of course, my experience in France when presenting my Irish European Health Insurance Card was that no clinic is equipped to deal with it, either.) Have you been able to get the Free Travel pass? Very handy for the bus or Iarnród Éireann.
As for the experience with tradesmen not being able to say "no," it might help to realise that there is a linguistic ambiguity in the Irish language, where historically there is no real word for "yes" or "no." Indeed, one hears "ta" for yes, but instead of "no" you often hear "I wouldn't be doing that," etc., or simply the evasive behaviour you experienced. I also recognise that behaviour from living in Dublin. (West Kerry was, by the way, our favourite destination for escaping the capital.)
Thank you for your lovely response, John. I do have the free travel pass now and have used it numerous times--especially on our treks to Dublin and the airport. It is a really nice gesture for us older folks. In fact, the Irish treat older people with great care and respect, which is lovely.
I have never lived in the UK, but I think they have a culturally-similar aversion to saying "no" as well. So maybe it's not just a linguistic issue, but a broader English-Irish issue as well? Although Ireland is in the EU, many of their customs and laws actually seem to be closer to the UK. Such as the type of electricity plugs they use and the fact that I--as an American--have to do the written exam, take numerous driving lessons, and take an in-person driving test to obtain a license.
In Austria, I exchanged my American driver's license with no problem at all. In Ireland, I handed over my Austrian license, but because I originally received my license in the US, that wasn't good enough. This, too, is a British requirement--not an EU requirement!
Thanks for coming back to me! I've also never lived in the UK though spent a lot of time there. Another symptom of the somewhat indirect way of speaking in Ireland is (in my experience) prolonged beating around the bush; I often heard people say to me "why don't you say what you *really* think, John" when I thought I was stating the obvious. There's probably a doctoral dissertation on this somewhere!
Lots of lingering British-isms in Irish culture from centuries of cultural dominationI think. I was astonished at how rigid the class structure and pecking order was in my university job there; there are some legal arrangements between the two countries that pre-date the EC and EU (such as regards travel and work); and there is an Anglo-Irish nobility still functioning in Ireland, hiding in plain sight. (And I'm sure you've heard the expression "West Brit").
As for the driving licence, when we moved, there were a couple US states and one Canadian province where licences were exchangeable. That's changed now--no states and several provinces. France is similar, so I don't think we can blame it on the Brits (much as I'd like to).
I delayed the driver's training for several years but eventually did it, and suppose I'm a better driver for having done so. I failed the test the first time I took it. The second time I had the same inspector, who after the test made me sit and watch as he filled out his paperwork, not knowing how I'd done. Finally he looked at me and said, "Well, John, you came within two points of failing again." A very Irish way of saying, "you passed."
Your experiences in university are interesting to hear about. I have read about the Anglo-Irish nobility, but haven't personally experienced it. Living as a retiree in the sparsely inhabited, Irish speaking west is a really different experience from working in London!
I had no idea the French made Americans take a driving test, too. (I'm sad now that I can't blame the Brits!)
You're right that the lessons make you a better driver. I am in the middle of those now and am afraid of taking the driving test!
A last comment, I promise, prompted by your reference to the Kerry Gaeltacht. Our favourite place to escape Dublin was Cloghane--we loved walking the beach from Fermoyle to Castlegregory (and enjoying the crabs at Spillane's) ... hardly a place more beautiful on a clear sunny day.
That is hilarious, John! We live just about one mile from Cloghane and are about an 8-minute walk to the Cloghane Estuary. It is our favorite part of Ireland, too.
This blew me away and made me regret not having been more adventurous in my life and living abroad. Your suggestions about learning the language of the place where you live in order not to be simply a tourist are so well taken. Learning Japanese has made all the difference for my son in that country. Thanks for such a helpful and interesting piece.
You can always come for a visit! We’re waiting for you, Ruth.
Thanks, Elizabeth! This is such a helpful and inspiring series! A visit sounds like an excellent solution. 🤗
Good perspective
Being gracious
This was such an enlightening and fascinating piece. I currently live in Vienna and dream of living in western Ireland or the Scottish highlands (but this is, sadly, a dream that I won't be able to realise...).
It's interesting to compare and contrast Austria and Ireland. My mother is Northern Irish so I know a lot about Ireland but not so much the bureaucratic element of living there.
So glad to discover you, Clarice, and I'm eager to check out your newsletter (which I shall do shortly). I'm also eager to hear more about your experiences with Austrian healthcare. I've had some struggles with it, but my situation might be unique - long story short: I'm British/American but was married to a Ukrainian and we left Ukraine in Feb 2022 and came to Vienna. My status is weird, kind of like expat/refugee and though we do get healthcare, finding a doctor and making appointments has proven to be a NIGHTMARE for me and my ex-wife (but thankfully, not so for our daughter).
Sadly, despite nearly two decades as an EFL teacher, I am terrible at other languages (shame on me) and it's so easy to survive in Vienna on just English. I have plenty of other terrible/valid excuses/reasons for not learning other languages over the years, which I might write about in detail at a later date.
Well done to you on living the dream!
Thank you for your lovely comments, Daniel.
I taught EFL for 12 years--both in the US and abroad--so we have that in common, too. I worked so hard to learn other languages when I was younger and became fairly fluent--for a time--in German, French and Spanish, but not even close to native speaking ability. A much younger colleague of mine at the INGO in Vienna where I worked was from Portugal and could read, write and speak English, German, French and Spanish (and Portuguese) like a native, with a perfect accent. (I used to tell her that she is who I want to be when I grow up!)
In addition, I have always envied people who tell me they learned to speak English just from watching American and British movies and TV. I am currently in Vienna and met another one of those last night--my charming taxi driver--who was born in Austria of Turkish parents. His English was really good, and I was really jealous!
The rest of us will just struggle along, doing the best we can, I guess.
I really like reading Substacks from people who are living in Vienna and just subscribed to yours.
Lucky for us you’re up next!
Hi again, Clarice,
Given your comments on language I thought you might enjoy my essay "German (then), French (now)" which concerns learning German in Bavaria, where dialect also flourishes. I used to play cards with some Bavarians at a hotel where I worked in Munich and was always amused by how they'd replaced "-zig" and the end of numbers like zwanzig, with "-sky", so "zwansky."
See https://leavingamerica.substack.com/p/german-then-french-now?r=1u1uw5
I absolutely loved your article, John! I am currently on a bus in Vienna. As soon as I am in the hotel again and next to my computer, I will go back to it and write a long comment.
Loved this! Inspiring. We never know what—or where—life has in store for us. Thanks, Clarice!
Thank you. And you're welcome, Dan.
Wonderful article.
I would love to know what such a professional would call themselves, how one might find them:
“…what is required and gathering together all of the necessary documents. It might be a good idea to hire a professional who can walk you through all of this and accompany you to the immigration office.”
Thank you, Davie. Each country would be different, I imagine. In many cases, it could be a lawyer who specializes in immigration services who would know what kind of paperwork is required and who would accompany you. Sometimes there may be a specialized immigration organization who could help. Even a friend or relative in the local country could accompany you just for translation purposes if the paperwork is in order.
In my case, the rules and regulations for obtaining a residence visa in Austria were clearly spelled out in English on the official website, so I took care of that before I left the US. However, I had to go to the immigration office in Vienna every year to renew my status, and just knowing what room to go to, what paper to fill out, how they would call your name, and what questions they would ask in the interview was a bit daunting. I spoke enough German to manage on my own, but I often saw that other people where accompanied by someone who could walk them through the process.
Thank you, Clarice.
I think that right there, is an excellent business idea for some enterprising soul.
What an enjoyable read about Clarice's incredible journey(s) to her present home in Ireland. What a varied trip, and with so much information packed in for anyone thinking or planning a move abroad. I'd read Clarice's post in Travel Doorways a couple weeks ago about her apartment searches and ordeals in Vienna which although full of trials and tribulations for Clarice, made for good reading--in a far away spot for an armchair traveler--to know about that process. We experienced immigration issues in Mexico and although different, somehow they always ring a bit the same. Thanks Elizabeth, great post!
Thank you, Jeanine! I'm glad you enjoy reading my articles, because I certainly enjoy reading yours!
You’re welcome! It’s easy when you’ve got someone as interesting as Clarice.
Thank you, Elizabeth.
This is really a double whammy- because if offers info on Austria too, not just Ireland. And how interesting to learn that for an Austrian speaking Hoch Deutsch seems harder than English. Thanks for these posts Elizabeth.
Thank you from me, too, Liza. Austrian German has a lot of words that are different from standard German, as well as pronunciation. For example, in German the word for tomato is "Tomate." In Austrian, it is "Paradeiser." (Go figure!) Even though the news media and teachers in schools use Hoch Deutsch, dialect unites people and makes them feel like they belong. I think there is an underlying animosity/bit of competition involved, too, that make Austrians unwilling to speak HD if they don't have to.
Clarice, thanks for the explanation about the importance of dialect in relation to a sense of belonging. I knew about the difference in pronunciation, but I thought that all Austrians were comfortable with Hoch Deutsch. I learned German in Austria and watching ORF (I am from Slovenia) and have been told I sound Austrian when I speak my very limited German. Also, in the part of Slovenia I come from, the language is highly influenced by Austrian German, so I actually say paradajz (which pronounced pah-rrah-dies) and use many other words of Austrian German origin (we were, after all "colonised" by the Austrio-Hungarian empire for many years).
That is really interesting, Liza. I’m afraid that my German identifies me immediately as an English speaker rather than as a native of either Germany or Austria! Do you use German very often in Slovenia?
I don’t live in Slovenia any more, but I know that few people in Slovenia speak German on a regular basis. Actually a lot of people use words of German/Austrian origin without realising it. But for most people, the foreign language they learn/speak is English.
Sounds like Switzerland. When you open your mouth, and HD comes out, you're met first by an eyeroll, followed by a deep sigh.
Thank you, Liza, for reading, enjoying, and commenting!
I had to smile reading the interview text. I come from an Irish-American family and lived and worked in Ireland almost 13 years. My impression is that, while Ireland participates in EU programmes assuring reciprocal healthcare privileges, the organisations delivering care seem not to be equipped to deal with the particulars, such as you experienced. What you experienced as a result is what is called "an Irish solution to an Irish problem"--a phrase I heard countless times while living there. (Of course, my experience in France when presenting my Irish European Health Insurance Card was that no clinic is equipped to deal with it, either.) Have you been able to get the Free Travel pass? Very handy for the bus or Iarnród Éireann.
As for the experience with tradesmen not being able to say "no," it might help to realise that there is a linguistic ambiguity in the Irish language, where historically there is no real word for "yes" or "no." Indeed, one hears "ta" for yes, but instead of "no" you often hear "I wouldn't be doing that," etc., or simply the evasive behaviour you experienced. I also recognise that behaviour from living in Dublin. (West Kerry was, by the way, our favourite destination for escaping the capital.)
Thank you for your lovely response, John. I do have the free travel pass now and have used it numerous times--especially on our treks to Dublin and the airport. It is a really nice gesture for us older folks. In fact, the Irish treat older people with great care and respect, which is lovely.
I have never lived in the UK, but I think they have a culturally-similar aversion to saying "no" as well. So maybe it's not just a linguistic issue, but a broader English-Irish issue as well? Although Ireland is in the EU, many of their customs and laws actually seem to be closer to the UK. Such as the type of electricity plugs they use and the fact that I--as an American--have to do the written exam, take numerous driving lessons, and take an in-person driving test to obtain a license.
In Austria, I exchanged my American driver's license with no problem at all. In Ireland, I handed over my Austrian license, but because I originally received my license in the US, that wasn't good enough. This, too, is a British requirement--not an EU requirement!
Hi Clarice,
Thanks for coming back to me! I've also never lived in the UK though spent a lot of time there. Another symptom of the somewhat indirect way of speaking in Ireland is (in my experience) prolonged beating around the bush; I often heard people say to me "why don't you say what you *really* think, John" when I thought I was stating the obvious. There's probably a doctoral dissertation on this somewhere!
Lots of lingering British-isms in Irish culture from centuries of cultural dominationI think. I was astonished at how rigid the class structure and pecking order was in my university job there; there are some legal arrangements between the two countries that pre-date the EC and EU (such as regards travel and work); and there is an Anglo-Irish nobility still functioning in Ireland, hiding in plain sight. (And I'm sure you've heard the expression "West Brit").
As for the driving licence, when we moved, there were a couple US states and one Canadian province where licences were exchangeable. That's changed now--no states and several provinces. France is similar, so I don't think we can blame it on the Brits (much as I'd like to).
I delayed the driver's training for several years but eventually did it, and suppose I'm a better driver for having done so. I failed the test the first time I took it. The second time I had the same inspector, who after the test made me sit and watch as he filled out his paperwork, not knowing how I'd done. Finally he looked at me and said, "Well, John, you came within two points of failing again." A very Irish way of saying, "you passed."
Your experiences in university are interesting to hear about. I have read about the Anglo-Irish nobility, but haven't personally experienced it. Living as a retiree in the sparsely inhabited, Irish speaking west is a really different experience from working in London!
I had no idea the French made Americans take a driving test, too. (I'm sad now that I can't blame the Brits!)
You're right that the lessons make you a better driver. I am in the middle of those now and am afraid of taking the driving test!
A last comment, I promise, prompted by your reference to the Kerry Gaeltacht. Our favourite place to escape Dublin was Cloghane--we loved walking the beach from Fermoyle to Castlegregory (and enjoying the crabs at Spillane's) ... hardly a place more beautiful on a clear sunny day.
That is hilarious, John! We live just about one mile from Cloghane and are about an 8-minute walk to the Cloghane Estuary. It is our favorite part of Ireland, too.