I just loved listening to this conversation. Gregory, so fascinating to learn about your life and Lisbon, and particularly compared to what it was like in Sweden. Elizabeth, excellent questions! Looking forward to more from both of you.
This conversation was an absolute delight. I could have listened for hours. Gregory, your voice is so soothing and mellifluous and I swear you could describe the contents of every shelf of a Home Depot and I'd still be hooked. Elizabeth, I love your interview style, such a lovely mix of short, snappy questions and then insightful responses/comments where not a word is wasted and it's so on point. I'm terrified now to continue with my own fledgling podcast!
A couple of things to mention that I'm going to come back to in more depth, and I quote you Gregory: "yes you should learn the local language, otherwise you’re getting a facsimile of the experience of living there." And then there was the point about being "a tourist or a colonizer – if you can’t converse with people in their own language." Ouch! I can't say I disagree at all, and more will become clear when I write/talk about this soon, but - shame on me - even though I've spent most of my life abroad and was an EFL teacher for nearly 2 decades I am still useless at languages. And I have my reasons/excuses which I will soon expound upon.
Elizabeth, I love that point you made about the 10 questions - "you had to have lived abroad to know which questions to ask". That's very much the case I find.
Lastly, in discussing the Home Depot example and the Americanisation of Europe. I wonder when this started because for as long as I remember, these big Home Depot like centres are typically outside of the city centre. Certainly in the UK that's been the case, they have a lot of industrial parks where you find the big shops like that, along with car dealers. Certainly in Ukraine many of these DIY stores are outside the centre. At times being abroad was frustrating when you lived in the centre and needed something for the home and had to schlep to the boondocks to get it.
Gregory, what is it with you and Elizabeths? Another one! 🤣
Thank you, Daniel! That's super-kind of you. Perhaps we should do a podcast in a Home Depot someday. 😉 Elizabeth is right when she says it's great editing—we said some incredibly silly things in this interview that she excised with surgical precision, with the result that we both come across as reasonable adults!
On the language thing, I think I can both maintain my position and say that it's possible to be an English speaker in certain countries (like Austria or Sweden) and have a good life. I just think it's important to consider what we are asking people to do when we force them to speak not their language, but ours. Some people will do this gladly; others will be resentful. And if our language didn't happen to be English, we would never get away with it.
It's true that IKEA and Home Depot-style places are always outside of town in the "industrial polygon", as they say in some countries. But it used to be that those places weren't needed. I remember three trips to local hardware stores here in Lisbon: In one, they had the part that I needed, and I was home again in two minutes. In the second, they didn't have the part I needed, but recommended another family-owned hardware store, which did. In the third, the guy said he didn't have what I needed, and the best thing was just to go out to the suburbs to the giant hardware mega-store, which really surprised me and made me slightly sad.
Yeah, Elizabeths... I dunno. The universe keeps sending them my way for reasons that nobody can explain. I have another one coming to visit tomorrow. 🤷
Oh, yeah, being compared to a colonizer made me wince, and yet it still wasn't enough to bust out my old German textbook.
Similar to the UK, in France and Switzerland, the big box stores (IKEA, for example) are outside the city center and often require a car to access, which has its own issues in terms of who can shop there.
Thanks for the kind words. I will let you in on my secret to a good interview; it's great editing. I'm a dolt in the raw audio. Trust me, you got this!
I'd read Gregory's excellent piece when it first came out, and have just enjoyed listing to this interview. I infer that the audience is one based in the US, and is one whose economic profile allows them to contemplate each of the issues raised in Gregory's article from a position of relative economic comfort.
I think the topic of security can be expanded upon. It is not just whether an individual is risk-averse or comfortable facing a comprehensive change in social and geographic environment. Seeking security or safety for oneself and one's family is also a powerful motivator for moving from one country to another--and indeed many move countries as an act of survival. Even for U.S. citizens, access to robust healthcare that does not potentially bring about economic ruin or an abbreviated lifetime can be a powerful impetus to flee, regardless of all the all other considerations. That's one I can identify with.
I'm not being critical. I'm grateful that when leaving the U.S. more than 15 years ago, we were financially secure enough to do so. I'd just like to acknowledge that for some there might be an element of urgency and personal well-being that transcends other questions that relate to personal comfort when moving abroad. That was also, I think, the experience of my grandparents and great-grandparents when circumstances brought them to America.
Thanks, John. Your comments are always so well thought-through and cogent. Yes, the original article was explicitly targeted at Americans, as it states, and specifically considering the situation of those who are sufficiently well-off that they can afford to pull up stakes and move abroad. In the comments on that piece, there was subsequently quite a bit of discussion about the fact that not all migration occurs in such luxurious circumstances. Many people are indeed forced to flee for their own safety, as we see every day in different parts of the world.
In the worst of scenarios, this could become true for Americans this time around, if trans people, for example, feel persecuted in the US. On an only slightly less dire level, we have all of the people who are the victims of the parasitic healthcare industry in the US, who can't afford the care that is considered a basic right in many other countries. These people also may not have the wealth of choices that many potential expats have, but it is my hope that by discussing the real challenges involved in moving abroad, I can at least help them be a bit better informed.
I think your list of issues to reflect upon is really excellent and hopefully will help some people avoid making an expensive mistake. When I read it for the second time, I did so thinking of important issues you might have missed, but nothing really important came to mind.
One thing you speak of that doesn't get much attention is the experience of working in a different culture, where labour laws and the role of unions is different than in the U.S. It took me a while to adapt to the very different experience of the workplace in Ireland after working in the U.S. Maybe a topic for another day? (It's something I expect to write about sometime, specifically about Ireland, but am not quite ready to do so.)
As for healthcare, it's the one thing in the U.S. I remain passionate--and angry--about. I see it as one of the big issues that cause so much stress for Americans--personal safety, health security, financial security. I sort of went off the deep end talking about it in this post: https://leavingamerica.substack.com/p/the-pervasive-vulnerability-of-life?r=1u1uw5.
John, it's very gratifying that you wouldn't necessarily add any major points to my list. I totally agree that working in another country is a _completely_ different experience (and I actually have given workshops to help people deal with the linguistic aspects of this), but since this varies so much from place to place and from domain to domain, I didn't feel that there was much I could say that would be universally applicable.
Yes, healthcare is perhaps the area in which American citizens are being most egregiously scammed by their own country. It's a tragedy. The post you link to is brilliant! Thank you.
John, thanks for your thoughtful comment. I often think of my grandparents and their escape from Europe, and what they would think of my reverse migration.
This is a fascinating conversation, Elizabeth. The topics you and Gregory discussed are really important for anyone who might be thinking of moving to a new country and wondering whether or not they should do so.
Learning portugues is really hard even if you know other latin languages from before. Or then it's because it's getting harder when you get older. I took a course about a year ago and nothing stuck except 'muito prazer'. Very frustrating for someone who all her life thought she was good at learning languages 😅
Hey, Carina, if the course left you with muito prazer, that sounds like a pretty positive experience! 😁 But seriously, I agree with Elizabeth: Lots of things can affect how well we learn a language, not least the quality of the instruction or input!
I have to admit that pronouncing muito prazer with the most authentic sounding intonation gives me a lot of pleasure. And next time in Portugal I can at least be polite!
I think you’re right; it’s difficult! You can still be good at languages and have a harder time with Portuguese for a multitude of reasons, least of which is your ability. Motivation, time, interest all play a role in what is a very hard thing to do. Learning a new language is tough.
Interesting conversation, can relate with the slower pace of living in Europe. One thing I've always grappled with being abroad is where "home" truly is—with family/friends in California or with my curious heart abroad somewhere. So it's nice to hear these stories
I enjoyed this convo lots. For several reasons: I want to move to Portugal eventually. I have an EU passport and my youngest daughter there and s granddaughter.
I am a Venezuelan married to a Belfastian living in Florida. Suffering from Autocratic PTSD which makes Trump's upcoming inauguration give me panic attacks. We had loads of post WWII, Spanish Civil War and Salazar immigrants arrive in Venezuela (including my dad) so its chaos, bureaucracy and siesta closing times don't faze me. On the contrary, it takes me back to my childhood and teenager years.
But of course, on the minus side, my husband is ailing, I'm no spring chicken anymore. And I have two other daughters and 5 gkids here in #FascistFloriduh. And I'm a Libra. Decisiones, decisiones. 🤷🏼♀️
When the time comes I will probably move for longer periods at first.
But what called my attention was both your comments on Switzerland/Sweden--coming from super chaotic life in Venezuela, the Dictator (who lost the election by 70-30%) & self inaugurated himself yesterday, while kidnapping his opponent ( later released) is the 180 degree opposite of what you describe. We have absolute 0 security on anything. You may never come back from going grocery shopping. A University professor earns $25 a month. Etc Maybe Portugal, Lisbon and any of the towns close to it would swing the pendulum to a more peaceful, gentle, jovial, existence. I already have the Latina/European DNA. I need conviviality more than anything in my golden years.
The world is changing, and democracy is under threat everywhere--some places more than others. It sounds like Protgual might be the sweet spot for you: chill Latin vibes mixed with European social democracy.
I know Florida is hugely problematic if you are an informed voter, but man, I always thought Miami would be a great place to live.
Nooooo not anymore. I live in gentler Fort Lauderdale. But...still even though it has an incredible vibe and food as a Multicultural Latin hub. But we are under #DeathSantis Cripto fascist rule, "don't say gay" laws, attacks on trans and LBGTQ+ rights, book prohibitions, anti protest laws, and terrible traffic.
Even though I've heard these stories before, having been on that 40,000 km ride around Europe with Gregory, I thoroughly enjoyed listening this conversation.
I just loved listening to this conversation. Gregory, so fascinating to learn about your life and Lisbon, and particularly compared to what it was like in Sweden. Elizabeth, excellent questions! Looking forward to more from both of you.
Thanks very much, Kaila! Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks!!
This conversation was an absolute delight. I could have listened for hours. Gregory, your voice is so soothing and mellifluous and I swear you could describe the contents of every shelf of a Home Depot and I'd still be hooked. Elizabeth, I love your interview style, such a lovely mix of short, snappy questions and then insightful responses/comments where not a word is wasted and it's so on point. I'm terrified now to continue with my own fledgling podcast!
A couple of things to mention that I'm going to come back to in more depth, and I quote you Gregory: "yes you should learn the local language, otherwise you’re getting a facsimile of the experience of living there." And then there was the point about being "a tourist or a colonizer – if you can’t converse with people in their own language." Ouch! I can't say I disagree at all, and more will become clear when I write/talk about this soon, but - shame on me - even though I've spent most of my life abroad and was an EFL teacher for nearly 2 decades I am still useless at languages. And I have my reasons/excuses which I will soon expound upon.
Elizabeth, I love that point you made about the 10 questions - "you had to have lived abroad to know which questions to ask". That's very much the case I find.
Lastly, in discussing the Home Depot example and the Americanisation of Europe. I wonder when this started because for as long as I remember, these big Home Depot like centres are typically outside of the city centre. Certainly in the UK that's been the case, they have a lot of industrial parks where you find the big shops like that, along with car dealers. Certainly in Ukraine many of these DIY stores are outside the centre. At times being abroad was frustrating when you lived in the centre and needed something for the home and had to schlep to the boondocks to get it.
Gregory, what is it with you and Elizabeths? Another one! 🤣
Thank you, Daniel! That's super-kind of you. Perhaps we should do a podcast in a Home Depot someday. 😉 Elizabeth is right when she says it's great editing—we said some incredibly silly things in this interview that she excised with surgical precision, with the result that we both come across as reasonable adults!
On the language thing, I think I can both maintain my position and say that it's possible to be an English speaker in certain countries (like Austria or Sweden) and have a good life. I just think it's important to consider what we are asking people to do when we force them to speak not their language, but ours. Some people will do this gladly; others will be resentful. And if our language didn't happen to be English, we would never get away with it.
It's true that IKEA and Home Depot-style places are always outside of town in the "industrial polygon", as they say in some countries. But it used to be that those places weren't needed. I remember three trips to local hardware stores here in Lisbon: In one, they had the part that I needed, and I was home again in two minutes. In the second, they didn't have the part I needed, but recommended another family-owned hardware store, which did. In the third, the guy said he didn't have what I needed, and the best thing was just to go out to the suburbs to the giant hardware mega-store, which really surprised me and made me slightly sad.
Yeah, Elizabeths... I dunno. The universe keeps sending them my way for reasons that nobody can explain. I have another one coming to visit tomorrow. 🤷
Oh, yeah, being compared to a colonizer made me wince, and yet it still wasn't enough to bust out my old German textbook.
Similar to the UK, in France and Switzerland, the big box stores (IKEA, for example) are outside the city center and often require a car to access, which has its own issues in terms of who can shop there.
Thanks for the kind words. I will let you in on my secret to a good interview; it's great editing. I'm a dolt in the raw audio. Trust me, you got this!
I'd read Gregory's excellent piece when it first came out, and have just enjoyed listing to this interview. I infer that the audience is one based in the US, and is one whose economic profile allows them to contemplate each of the issues raised in Gregory's article from a position of relative economic comfort.
I think the topic of security can be expanded upon. It is not just whether an individual is risk-averse or comfortable facing a comprehensive change in social and geographic environment. Seeking security or safety for oneself and one's family is also a powerful motivator for moving from one country to another--and indeed many move countries as an act of survival. Even for U.S. citizens, access to robust healthcare that does not potentially bring about economic ruin or an abbreviated lifetime can be a powerful impetus to flee, regardless of all the all other considerations. That's one I can identify with.
I'm not being critical. I'm grateful that when leaving the U.S. more than 15 years ago, we were financially secure enough to do so. I'd just like to acknowledge that for some there might be an element of urgency and personal well-being that transcends other questions that relate to personal comfort when moving abroad. That was also, I think, the experience of my grandparents and great-grandparents when circumstances brought them to America.
Thanks, John. Your comments are always so well thought-through and cogent. Yes, the original article was explicitly targeted at Americans, as it states, and specifically considering the situation of those who are sufficiently well-off that they can afford to pull up stakes and move abroad. In the comments on that piece, there was subsequently quite a bit of discussion about the fact that not all migration occurs in such luxurious circumstances. Many people are indeed forced to flee for their own safety, as we see every day in different parts of the world.
In the worst of scenarios, this could become true for Americans this time around, if trans people, for example, feel persecuted in the US. On an only slightly less dire level, we have all of the people who are the victims of the parasitic healthcare industry in the US, who can't afford the care that is considered a basic right in many other countries. These people also may not have the wealth of choices that many potential expats have, but it is my hope that by discussing the real challenges involved in moving abroad, I can at least help them be a bit better informed.
Hi again, Gregory,
I think your list of issues to reflect upon is really excellent and hopefully will help some people avoid making an expensive mistake. When I read it for the second time, I did so thinking of important issues you might have missed, but nothing really important came to mind.
One thing you speak of that doesn't get much attention is the experience of working in a different culture, where labour laws and the role of unions is different than in the U.S. It took me a while to adapt to the very different experience of the workplace in Ireland after working in the U.S. Maybe a topic for another day? (It's something I expect to write about sometime, specifically about Ireland, but am not quite ready to do so.)
As for healthcare, it's the one thing in the U.S. I remain passionate--and angry--about. I see it as one of the big issues that cause so much stress for Americans--personal safety, health security, financial security. I sort of went off the deep end talking about it in this post: https://leavingamerica.substack.com/p/the-pervasive-vulnerability-of-life?r=1u1uw5.
Keep up the good work.
John, it's very gratifying that you wouldn't necessarily add any major points to my list. I totally agree that working in another country is a _completely_ different experience (and I actually have given workshops to help people deal with the linguistic aspects of this), but since this varies so much from place to place and from domain to domain, I didn't feel that there was much I could say that would be universally applicable.
Yes, healthcare is perhaps the area in which American citizens are being most egregiously scammed by their own country. It's a tragedy. The post you link to is brilliant! Thank you.
John, thanks for your thoughtful comment. I often think of my grandparents and their escape from Europe, and what they would think of my reverse migration.
This is a fascinating conversation, Elizabeth. The topics you and Gregory discussed are really important for anyone who might be thinking of moving to a new country and wondering whether or not they should do so.
Thanks! (PS: the survey is in your DMs)
Learning portugues is really hard even if you know other latin languages from before. Or then it's because it's getting harder when you get older. I took a course about a year ago and nothing stuck except 'muito prazer'. Very frustrating for someone who all her life thought she was good at learning languages 😅
Hey, Carina, if the course left you with muito prazer, that sounds like a pretty positive experience! 😁 But seriously, I agree with Elizabeth: Lots of things can affect how well we learn a language, not least the quality of the instruction or input!
I have to admit that pronouncing muito prazer with the most authentic sounding intonation gives me a lot of pleasure. And next time in Portugal I can at least be polite!
I’d say you’re well on your way!
Thank you! 🙏🏼
I think you’re right; it’s difficult! You can still be good at languages and have a harder time with Portuguese for a multitude of reasons, least of which is your ability. Motivation, time, interest all play a role in what is a very hard thing to do. Learning a new language is tough.
Interesting conversation, can relate with the slower pace of living in Europe. One thing I've always grappled with being abroad is where "home" truly is—with family/friends in California or with my curious heart abroad somewhere. So it's nice to hear these stories
I understand. I am obsessed with the idea of what makes a place home.
I enjoyed this convo lots. For several reasons: I want to move to Portugal eventually. I have an EU passport and my youngest daughter there and s granddaughter.
I am a Venezuelan married to a Belfastian living in Florida. Suffering from Autocratic PTSD which makes Trump's upcoming inauguration give me panic attacks. We had loads of post WWII, Spanish Civil War and Salazar immigrants arrive in Venezuela (including my dad) so its chaos, bureaucracy and siesta closing times don't faze me. On the contrary, it takes me back to my childhood and teenager years.
But of course, on the minus side, my husband is ailing, I'm no spring chicken anymore. And I have two other daughters and 5 gkids here in #FascistFloriduh. And I'm a Libra. Decisiones, decisiones. 🤷🏼♀️
When the time comes I will probably move for longer periods at first.
But what called my attention was both your comments on Switzerland/Sweden--coming from super chaotic life in Venezuela, the Dictator (who lost the election by 70-30%) & self inaugurated himself yesterday, while kidnapping his opponent ( later released) is the 180 degree opposite of what you describe. We have absolute 0 security on anything. You may never come back from going grocery shopping. A University professor earns $25 a month. Etc Maybe Portugal, Lisbon and any of the towns close to it would swing the pendulum to a more peaceful, gentle, jovial, existence. I already have the Latina/European DNA. I need conviviality more than anything in my golden years.
The world is changing, and democracy is under threat everywhere--some places more than others. It sounds like Protgual might be the sweet spot for you: chill Latin vibes mixed with European social democracy.
I know Florida is hugely problematic if you are an informed voter, but man, I always thought Miami would be a great place to live.
Nooooo not anymore. I live in gentler Fort Lauderdale. But...still even though it has an incredible vibe and food as a Multicultural Latin hub. But we are under #DeathSantis Cripto fascist rule, "don't say gay" laws, attacks on trans and LBGTQ+ rights, book prohibitions, anti protest laws, and terrible traffic.
Not my idea of a happy place!
Nope besides summer humidity send the heat into triple digits. Hurricanes and DeathSantis.
Even though I've heard these stories before, having been on that 40,000 km ride around Europe with Gregory, I thoroughly enjoyed listening this conversation.
I suspected as much!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! High praise from an eyewitness account.
Also, Gregory was very modest - his Portuguese is fluent, maybe not perfect, but close to it.